[Ryjeon]

jimmyj0e, on 16 March 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

dude no offense but the last 3 immos released are all op. now that cant be just a coincidence.
i understand that they have to keep the game interesting but i think this is not the right way to do it.
keeping up the price for the op immos is just a way to encourage a pay for win "feature" of this game.

Both Kaos and Ukkonen were considered weak on their release. Balancing new immortals tends to have a pendulum effect, with the champion swinging from unviable to op and back. It takes a while for the game to adjust to these new additions as people learn how to get the most out of the character and as well as how to fight them.

[kelathin]

Angewlus, on 16 March 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

Both. Even if Kaos is cloaked any autoattack or missile (e.g. Lazarus Oblivion missile) after 0.5 sec will land on him. That's a bug. All attacks should be immediately interrupted. Or another bug - he can just be visible for 1.5 secs or the whole duration of Q. All attacks or abilities will work on him. No truevision in the area.

Does sound like a bug, will look into it.

Angewlus, on 16 March 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

Jungle creeps.

That was a design change on purpose. Before it was abusable by attacking in bushes and jungle never attacked back. So I doubt this will be addressed since it was intentional change

Angewlus, on 16 March 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

Too much preparation time, animation and duration. Too short cast range. Sig is too easy too avoid.

The only thing Sig is good enough at - defending towers or destroying towers (it acts somewhat like Trovok's R). And other immortals' sigs are great for killing. Especially Azca, who can combine all her abilties on her own and kill everyone.

Kaos has no combos.

Completely useless W ability close damage buff - no chance to hit an opponent with it.

I actually love using Kaos's sig to combo with Vezins, Azcadelias, Tatania. Their lengthy AOE stun/immobilizes allow you to completely devastate enemy teams, but I do think that Kaos's sig could use an decrease in prep time. Half Health is massive damage though.

[aradoness]

: squeal : robo scorpix :-D!!!!

[Aamido]

kelathin, on 16 March 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

I'm sorry the patch didn't quite live up to your expectations.

I will note somethings about the last few immortal releases. If I need to pull links and quote, I can to back up what I'm saying.

Trovoc: Took buffs over time
Talia: Took a nerf two patches afterwards
Pycon: Took buffs over time.
Kavashir: Still not quite up to par, has been buffed and indirectly nerfed over time.
Ukkonen: Needed a strong buff one patch straight after
Kaos: Needed a buff one patch straight after

To say, Petroglyph releases immortals that are always OP in order to sell is just plain wrong. Petroglyph isn't HoN/LoL developers. The immortals go through internal and external testing before being released which helps iron out the drastic extremities that occur in other games.

About the KAOS invisibility bug, are you seeing the bug as KAOS or fighting Kaos?
Creeps ignoring brush? What do you mean in lane or jungle creeps?
How is kaos's sig broken? Does it not do damage or something?

So basically you are saying that none of the more recent immortals have been balanced on release? Then what kind of "internal and external testing" is taking place? Is Petro actually listening to the feedback from the testing team? The process appears to be inadequate.

It actually took a month for Talia to get the nerfs she needed (Nov 10 patch), in the patch you mention she took a moderate nerf to her sig duration but a strong buff to her discipline tree, to quote someone else on this change:

SuchIsLife said:

I don't know who thought it was a good idea to give an already solid hard carry an AD bonus that starts at around 10 at level 1 and scales throughout the game, but they were very, very wrong.

A whole four patches before her game destroying spree was brought to an end, far too long. When an immortal is so obviously OP at release it really makes me question the quality of testing and the delay in rectifying the issue.

The smaller imbalances that take tweaks over time (everyone else on your list there) I can deal with however here we have Azcadelia who is almost at the same game ruining level of the original Talia. Currently from low levels all the way to 50 it seems to be that the team with the better Azcedelia wins. The team without one? Sucks to be them, particularly if they happen to be running a carry (these are still useless by the way Petro).

Will it take a month or more until Azcadelia is changed? If so I might as well take a break from this game, someone let me know when it's done.

Some might say "but Ukkonen is also very strong right now." I agree with that, I stated in-game that he was the strongest immortal (not anymore thanks to Azcadelia) before Trylo updated his tier list. However Ukkonen only really shines when being controlled by a skilled player, he requires some effort in order to reach his potential (I'm not defending him, he still needs to be tweaked). On the other hand we have Azcadelia who I see being played by people of an average or lower skill level and they are still demolishing teams with K/D ratios ranging from 3.0 to 10.0+

Just take a look at her skill set:
You want to silence someone? Press W
Need mana? Press E
Want to cleanse some annoying debuff? Press E
Need to escape from being nuked/Kyrie ult/being targetable in general? Press E
Want some AOE damage? Press Q or E or D
Want to wipe the enemy team if they do not run to the other side of the map? Press D
Want to burst kill a single target? Press W then Q, start with R if you really want them dead.
People moving too difficult for you? Press R
Want to slow down the enemy carries attack speed? Press R


Seriously though, to break it down a bit:

Her signature lasts for twenty seconds, moves faster than any immortal without buffs/pots, slows and deals significant amounts of damage (both AOE and single target). It also chases the enemy half way across the map (not really but it may as well).

Her ult creates a large area for four seconds (six when skilled to level 3) that immobilises and enfeebles (cannot AA) anyone who walks into it for two seconds then slows MS and AS by 30% to 40% (as the skill levels) for four seconds. Furthermore shadelings deal 30% more damage to anyone affected by the debuffs (50% more at level 3). The cooldown and depreciation rate of the debuff can be reduced through the discipline tree.

Her E skill 'Umbral Veil' cleanses all debuffs, makes her untargetable for two seconds whilst dealing damage and leeching mana.

Her W skill silences, teleports all shadelings to the target, ressurects some if there are none and is refreshed if Azcadelia gets a kill. Also note that it has a shorter casting time than the Psycozen or Trovoc silences (and Tatiana's stun) though longer than Vezin and it has the longest range. As you level up this skill the length of silence increases, cooldown decreases and shadelings ressurected increases. The range can be incresed through the discipline tree.

Her Q detonates shadelings for AOE damage, shadelings have a fairly short respawn time based on the cooldown of the ability which can be lowered with disciplines. Just recently I played a game as Tzai with 30+ MR against an Azcadelia (we were both tactical level 16, persistant 50) who burst killed me from almost full health, in my death report it stated that shadelings dealt 1600+ damage to me. Seems just a little bit excessive, I haven't done the math but I would like to know how that is possible.

Noticing a trend here? All her abilities have an abundance of utility. All of them are very straightforward to use. All of them increase the strength of their 1000 effects through levelling the skill and/or the discipline tree.


In my opinion there are clear problems with her sig, ult and W.

The sig needs a reduction in time, reduction in how far it will chase and a reduction in movement speed of the queen. The ult does far too many things and far too well, I don't even know where to begin. Remove half it's effects and it still looks strong. W should definately not refresh on a kill and I don't even think it should resurrect any shadelings, perhaps one at the most to use as an emergency kill on a fleeing enemy.

In addition to all her powerful abilities she gets a nice amount of magic penetration from her disclipline tree and builds tank like almost all casters do. She can stand up to any other immortal, is very durable, deals full damage or close to full damage to any immortal and has great utility. Where is her weakness? She is strong early game, strong mid game, strong late game, strong in lane, a strong ganker, a good jungler, fantastic in team fights and a decent pusher.


TL,DR: I am extremely dissapointed with this patch. Carries are still useless, nerf Azcadelia, nerf Ukkonen.

[Kyo]

Aamido, on 17 March 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

So basically you are saying that none of the more recent immortals have been balanced on release? Then what kind of "internal and external testing" is taking place? Is Petro actually listening to the feedback from the testing team? The process appears to be inadequate.

It actually took a month for Talia to get the nerfs she needed (Nov 10 patch), in the patch you mention she took a moderate nerf to her sig duration but a strong buff to her discipline tree, to quote someone else on this change:

A whole four patches before her game destroying spree was brought to an end, far too long. When an immortal is so obviously OP at release it really makes me question the quality of testing and the delay in rectifying the issue.

The smaller imbalances that take tweaks over time (everyone else on your list there) I can deal with however here we have Azcadelia who is almost at the same game ruining level of the original Talia. Currently from low levels all the way to 50 it seems to be that the team with the better Azcedelia wins. The team without one? Sucks to be them, particularly if they happen to be running a carry (these are still useless by the way Petro).

Will it take a month or more until Azcadelia is changed? If so I might as well take a break from this game, someone let me know when it's done.

Some might say "but Ukkonen is also very strong right now." I agree with that, I stated in-game that he was the strongest immortal (not anymore thanks to Azcadelia) before Trylo updated his tier list. However Ukkonen only really shines when being controlled by a skilled player, he requires some effort in order to reach his potential (I'm not defending him, he still needs to be tweaked). On the other hand we have Azcadelia who I see being played by people of an average or lower skill level and they are still demolishing teams with K/D ratios ranging from 3.0 to 10.0+

Just take a look at her skill set:
You want to silence someone? Press W
Need mana? Press E
Want to cleanse some annoying debuff? Press E
Need to escape from being nuked/Kyrie ult/being targetable in general? Press E
Want some AOE damage? Press Q or E or D
Want to wipe the enemy team if they do not run to the other side of the map? Press D
Want to burst kill a single target? Press W then Q, start with R if you really want them dead.
People moving too difficult for you? Press R
Want to slow down the enemy carries attack speed? Press R


Seriously though, to break it down a bit:

Her signature lasts for twenty seconds, moves faster than any immortal without buffs/pots, slows and deals significant amounts of damage (both AOE and single target). It also chases the enemy half way across the map (not really but it may as well).

Her ult creates a large area for four seconds (six when skilled to level 3) that immobilises and enfeebles (cannot AA) anyone who walks into it for two seconds then slows MS and AS by 30% to 40% (as the skill levels) for four seconds. Furthermore shadelings deal 30% more damage to anyone affected by the debuffs (50% more at level 3). The cooldown and depreciation rate of the debuff can be reduced through the discipline tree.

Her E skill 'Umbral Veil' cleanses all debuffs, makes her untargetable for two seconds whilst dealing damage and leeching mana.

Her W skill silences, teleports all shadelings to the target, ressurects some if there are none and is refreshed if Azcadelia gets a kill. Also note that it has a shorter casting time than the Psycozen or Trovoc silences (and Tatiana's stun) though longer than Vezin and it has the longest range. As you level up this skill the length of silence increases, cooldown decreases and shadelings ressurected increases. The range can be incresed through the discipline tree.

Her Q detonates shadelings for AOE damage, shadelings have a fairly short respawn time based on the cooldown of the ability which can be lowered with disciplines. Just recently I played a game as Tzai with 30+ MR against an Azcadelia (we were both tactical level 16, persistant 50) who burst killed me from almost full health, in my death report it stated that shadelings dealt 1600+ damage to me. Seems just a little bit excessive, I haven't done the math but I would like to know how that is possible.

Noticing a trend here? All her abilities have an abundance of utility. All of them are very straightforward to use. All of them increase the strength of their 1000 effects through levelling the skill and/or the discipline tree.


In my opinion there are clear problems with her sig, ult and W.

The sig needs a reduction in time, reduction in how far it will chase and a reduction in movement speed of the queen. The ult does far too many things and far too well, I don't even know where to begin. Remove half it's effects and it still looks strong. W should definately not refresh on a kill and I don't even think it should resurrect any shadelings, perhaps one at the most to use as an emergency kill on a fleeing enemy.

In addition to all her powerful abilities she gets a nice amount of magic penetration from her disclipline tree and builds tank like almost all casters do. She can stand up to any other immortal, is very durable, deals full damage or close to full damage to any immortal and has great utility. Where is her weakness? She is strong early game, strong mid game, strong late game, strong in lane, a strong ganker, a good jungler, fantastic in team fights and a decent pusher.


TL,DR: I am extremely dissapointed with this patch. Carries are still useless, nerf Azcadelia, nerf Ukkonen.

I was quite surprised at first when I saw this patch as well. When I saw that no balance changes had been made I was pretty confused as I felt like they were really needed for the immortals you pointed out (Azcadelia and Ukkonen.)
I really think both need to be nerfed. The point you made with the immortals being released not being balanced is a very good point too. Something might not be working optimally with the testing team and the way Petro balances based on the feedback from that. It could be an idea to look into that to hopefully release balanced immortals in the future to avoid either gamebreaking releases or releases of immortals simply not being as fun because they're not powerful enough to stand up to the already existing immortals. This really hurts especially if you just spent 5000 blue coins to buy the immortal. That's a lot of coins gathered over many games. To feel like you waste such an amount of coins can be quite disappointing.

Just to follow up on your last point: Carries useless -> supports useless -> anti-carries less effective -> tanks more effective -> casters supreme dominance. It's really not limited to just carries it effects the entire role setup of all the roles that carries are currently not effective.

This post has been edited by Kyo: 17 March 2012 - 05:58 AM

[fruitbox]

I too am dissapointed with how balance changes are going but keep in mind that these things take time. When LoL was still new, they had all sorts of balance issues (6 turret Heimer, old school TF/Jax (haha fun times), twitch being the unstoppable carry, and who can forget release day xin zhao

That being said, some of the changes-or lack of- is disappointing especially with the latest immortal. I was worried that her kit was too good since it had a bit of everything but I held back a bit because I waited until numbers were released. And now? I think she is too good at all phases of the game. 20 seconds on her sig is disguising; it really is.

[dron13]

I want to ask - how many TESTERS does petro have? Does they have 10 GOOD players who can test new immortals? Where they test them? I guess, before release, there must be 10 men who can test immortal throughout all modes and against all immortals and tryout basic game 5v5 in near-realistic situations at least. This is what we call "QA", and if there will be nice QA compared with easy parameter-switching software, they can find normal immortal properties. I can't believe that 1 day of testing is not enough to QA to findout best variant to new immortal. If you don't have QA, then ask some of premades to aid you - they can test immortal at any level, they can play more and don't waste hours in queue for nothing.

And for anyone who says Ukko needs nerf I can say - if PG team will try to nerf him, they must fix his bugs too! Because there are too many times when hi dies just because his skill doesn't work. All immortals can spam their skills near walls, Ukko still can't move to enemy who is near wall. I hear voice of skill but he doesn't move. And his Q still is a big problem if enemy is "ON HIM" (when enemy goes straight to Ukko and stays as near as possible, even some enemy's graphics overlays Ukko) - then Ukko can't spam his Q on enemy - skill can be landed only a bit far from enemy. This are 2 big Ukko problems because in heaty fights you try to use all skills as fast as possible, you don't have enough time to land them correctly. I'm not bad Ukko player and I already land all his skills better than average, and even so I have some problems with his skills. And what's for those who are bad Ukkos? This can force them to leave game and call it bugged.
So, if you want nerf, provide fixes. All what you say always is that it will be forwarded to dev team, but in a month there are no fixes for "forwarded issues". If you don't want to fix them, then just say "we think that it's alright, no fixes!", what's the problem?

[Kyo]

dron13, on 17 March 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

And for anyone who says Ukko needs nerf I can say - if PG team will try to nerf him, they must fix his bugs too! Because there are too many times when hi dies just because his skill doesn't work. All immortals can spam their skills near walls, Ukko still can't move to enemy who is near wall. I hear voice of skill but he doesn't move.

That's intended, it's not a bug.

Quote

And his Q still is a big problem if enemy is "ON HIM" (when enemy goes straight to Ukko and stays as near as possible, even some enemy's graphics overlays Ukko) - then Ukko can't spam his Q on enemy - skill can be landed only a bit far from enemy. This are 2 big Ukko problems because in heaty fights you try to use all skills as fast as possible, you don't have enough time to land them correctly.

I'm quite certain you can just shoot them at max range and you'll hit anyone standing right infront of you with all 3 bolts. I'm quite certain it's covered in Brochilles guide on him here. It is a skill shot so it's meant to be difficult to hit especially if people are standing close to you and moving around. This is where you may work out a combo like Ukkonen and Tatiana to ensure that you hit with it. It is a team-based game after all. You're not MEANT to run around and play by yourself.

Quote

I'm not bad Ukko player and I already land all his skills better than average, and even so I have some problems with his skills. And what's for those who are bad Ukkos? This can force them to leave game and call it bugged.

Leaving him untouched may make a lot of other people leave the game while calling it imbalanced.

Quote

So, if you want nerf, provide fixes. All what you say always is that it will be forwarded to dev team, but in a month there are no fixes for "forwarded issues". If you don't want to fix them, then just say "we think that it's alright, no fixes!", what's the problem?

Neither of the problems you stated are bugs. While there are bugs in the game I feel like the ones you pointed out should be least priotized as they are not bugs.

Just as a last note: as a Ukkonen you don't need to use your skill shot at all. The Ukkonens I've seen dominate don't even bother with it. They usually miss with some of their dashes too. His dash (W) is way too powerful at the moment and so is his E. His ultimate mostly ensures at least one kill if 2-3 enemies gang up on you as it seems too powerful at the moment as well. His skill shot is redundant at the moment as you don't even need to use it to dominate with him. He needs two abilities to dominate (W and E.) Only one of them costs mana.

This post has been edited by Kyo: 17 March 2012 - 10:23 AM

[dron13]

Kyo said:

That's intended, it's not a bug.

Provelink?

Kyo said:

I'm quite certain you can just shoot them at max range and you'll hit anyone standing right infront of you with all 3 bolts. I'm quite certain it's covered in Brochilles guide on him here. It is a skill shot so it's meant to be difficult to hit especially if people are standing close to you and moving around. This is where you may work out a combo like Ukkonen and Tatiana to ensure that you hit with it. It is a team-based game after all. You're not MEANT to run around and play by yourself.

In my guide I told about this, so no need to tell about how I can land it
And this is not trugh that you can land it everywhere - sometimes it lands only 2 of 3 bolts even near, I just can't name this situation as "bug", because I don't think that it was intended to be always 3 shots on near-stand enemy.

Kyo said:

Leaving him untouched may make a lot of other people leave the game while calling it imbalanced.

Where did I say that he must not be nerfed? So I don't understand the idea of your counter-argument.

Kyo said:

Just as a last note: as a Ukkonen you don't need to use your skill shot at all. The Ukkonens I've seen dominate don't even bother with it. They usually miss with some of their dashes too. His dash (W) is way too powerful at the moment and so is his E. His ultimate mostly ensures at least one kill if 2-3 enemies gang up on you as it seems too powerful at the moment as well. His skill shot is redundant at the moment as you don't even need to use it to dominate with him. He needs two abilities to dominate (W and E.) Only one of them costs mana.

Really? Well, I look at him as I looked on Kyrie - fast, with spammable landing skillshot and good pursue/leave potential. And he has only one stun which helps him to kill BEFORE enemy lands his skills. This Q saves from Kyrie,s ult, prevents Tat's ult, and has various uses. If you don't think that he needs to use his Q at all, then you maybe play him not in his full powers? The only thing that I must agree here is that his W damage is very big. But here I must say something that was said before for Kyrie - maybe there is problem in GOOD players using Ukko, not in Ukko himself? I know only 1-2 normal Ukkos in game, others can be killed almost every time. Ukko has no damage for his signature, which can kill entire teams by other immortals, and his Q is very hard to land perfectly. So he has only W and a bit boost from E. For 95% of players it's not enough - that's why there are so few Ukkos in game.

[Trovoc-PG]

dron13, on 17 March 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

I want to ask - how many TESTERS does petro have? Does they have 10 GOOD players who can test new immortals? Where they test them? I guess, before release, there must be 10 men who can test immortal throughout all modes and against all immortals and tryout basic game 5v5 in near-realistic situations at least. This is what we call "QA", and if there will be nice QA compared with easy parameter-switching software, they can find normal immortal properties. I can't believe that 1 day of testing is not enough to QA to findout best variant to new immortal. If you don't have QA, then ask some of premades to aid you - they can test immortal at any level, they can play more and don't waste hours in queue for nothing.

Of course we do have a dedicated QA team assigned to ROI. In addition, we have a private test realm which is currently invite-only, but which features players that you will be familiar with from tournaments and so on. By the way, there is also what is essentially a mandated play session once per day (and often more) with the *entire* development team. As I have noted elsewhere, we are looking at ways to increase the scope of our PTR testing.

[dron13]

Trovoc-PG, on 17 March 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

Of course we do have a dedicated QA team assigned to ROI. In addition, we have a private test realm which is currently invite-only, but which features players that you will be familiar with from tournaments and so on. By the way, there is also what is essentially a mandated play session once per day (and often more) with the *entire* development team. As I have noted elsewhere, we are looking at ways to increase the scope of our PTR testing.

Well, it's good to hear)

[Kyo]

dron13, on 17 March 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

Really? Well, I look at him as I looked on Kyrie - fast, with spammable landing skillshot and good pursue/leave potential.

That would be a very silly thing to do considering Kyrie's skill shot is her main source of damage outside of her ulti. Ukkonen's main damage output is his W (dash) which is enough to kill immortals. His ulti may deal more damage over time but his W is the biggest burst he has and it's very overpowered at the moment.

Quote

And he has only one stun which helps him to kill BEFORE enemy lands his skills. This Q saves from Kyrie,s ult, prevents Tat's ult, and has various uses. If you don't think that he needs to use his Q at all, then you maybe play him not in his full powers? The only thing that I must agree here is that his W damage is very big.

I never said it wasn't a convenient ability to have. I said it wasn't NEEDED. He doesn't need the ability whatsoever to dominate and destroy. All he needs is his W and E which is quite accurate.

Quote

maybe there is problem in GOOD players using Ukko, not in Ukko himself? I know only 1-2 normal Ukkos in game, others can be killed almost every time. Ukko has no damage for his signature, which can kill entire teams by other immortals, and his Q is very hard to land perfectly. So he has only W and a bit boost from E. For 95% of players it's not enough - that's why there are so few Ukkos in game.

So from now on we should balance the immortals based on how the bots play them?

Ukkonen has a very good skill set but it's not being used. Why? Because people don't NEED to use it. All that's required is his W and E (just E on perma you don't even have to switch between it to increase efficiency.) Whitzard truly dominates with Ukkonen and as he said he doesn't even get his champion tree or signature. Meaning his abilities are that powerful by themselves without the champion tree and he doesn't even get the signature ability. Ukkonen has a lot of tools at his disposal but I think a person should HAVE to use them in order to dominate with the immortal.

What do I think should be done to balance Ukkonen? I think that his W should be nerfed and possibly remove the movement speed buff on his damage/movement speed E. It just seems like an overkill and seems redundant. Eventhough it synergized nicely with his W it seems like overkill. It should only give damage but not movement speed. It seems to make the immortal far too easy and powerful. Possibly nerf the numbers on it as well (the entire E ability.)
Nerf the W (dash.) Less damage and possibly smaller AoE. It's far too easy to use as it is. His ultimate needs some kind of nerf as well. You should not be able to use it and kill at least 1 person without doing anything but have the ulti bounce between the immortals. It's too devastating. It might be too much to do all these things but I believe the current issues are:

1. His W (dash) too much damage.

2. His E gives him too much movement speed and the numbers seem too high.

3. His R (ultimate) deals too much damage especially if it's hitting multiple immortals.

This post has been edited by Kyo: 17 March 2012 - 11:35 AM

[dron13]

Kyo, on 17 March 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

What do I think should be done to balance Ukkonen? I think that his W should be nerfed and possibly remove the movement speed buff on his damage/movement speed E. It just seems like an overkill and seems redundant. Eventhough it synergized nicely with his W it seems like overkill. It should only give damage but not movement speed. It seems to make the immortal far too easy and powerful. Possibly nerf the numbers on it as well (the entire E ability.)
Nerf the W (dash.) Less damage and possibly smaller AoE. It's far too easy to use as it is. His ultimate needs some kind of nerf as well. You should not be able to use it and kill at least 1 person without doing anything but have the ulti bounce between the immortals. It's too devastating. It might be too much to do all these things but I believe the current issues are:

1. His W (dash) too much damage.

2. His E gives him too much movement speed and the numbers seem too high.

3. His R (ultimate) deals too much damage especially if it's hitting multiple immortals.

I can agree with nerfing damage and radius of W, but if devs won't nerf damage bonus from W and won't make again connection between charges and W use, because that was worst thing I ever seen And BTW, most of the time I kill creeps by Q, it has perfect variant of landing where 3 ranged die and 3 melee have few hp left, so it will be fair. And almost everytime I try to land W directly, so I guess this would be handy if radius will be nerfed - less competition))
About E - maybe just remove doubling buff? 8 speed and 20 damage is not very big deal, if they nerf speed bonus, they must add more damage, but it will be Talia-like skill =( 6/6 from defensive stance is normal, I guess, compared to fact that Ukko can't build himself as good in attack capabilities as other carries. Quick blade gives 60% AP to one target, and there are so many things that can give 20+ AP and damage and even ministun (the last one is very useful for any carry). Ukko can make only 30% of MRP from staff, he can't buy dagger, he can obtain silence but it costs much more than dagger's first upgrade. And making more MRP means wasting of his attack/defence capabilities. If we remove E passive, he will be less powerful than other carries because of lack of magic carry items. Double stat is OP, but skill itself is normal.
And about his R - it can deal 600 damage at first level if enemy not stacking like fools. If enemy spread - 300 damage. It's not world-breaking skill, I guess. But if you are saying about teamfights then every ultimate except few ones can deal great damage. For example, once I used flying kick and got hit by Pycon's ult when he charged on my teammate. It was just random, but I got kicked to turret and suffered tons of damage. So, there are some ways to get kills mindless, Vezin's arena can deal 4000 damage to team even if placed mindless

This post has been edited by dron13: 17 March 2012 - 01:03 PM

[axte]

I don't ukk's R does too much damage. It does the roughly the same amount as neth's ult and neth's ult isn't limited to 3 opponents and also snares.

[Kyo]

You might be right. W is clearly the main issue but I think E might be an issue as well. His ultimate might be alright and just doing that much damage due to his crazy leveling.

[Snotling]

Azcadelia still seems like a UGOD machine tho, but im too lazy to test her on my own. Other than that, decent work with the patch!

[lemming3k]

Quote

Adjusted casting seconds to be no more than 0.4 seconds; affects Aislynn, Trovoc, Netheurgist

Can anyone confirm that? Neth still feels sluggish but it could just be lag. The descriptions certainly haven't changed though. :/